The Evolution of Non-Alcoholic Wines with Rachel Martin of Oceano Wines

Welcome to the Sipping Point Podcast. Join Laurie Forster, the wine coach, as she guides you through the world of wine, food, and so much more. Laurie brings a fresh and fun approach to the world of wine. So whether you're a seasoned wine lover or just getting started, this is the place to explore how to sip, savor, and live your most delicious life.

 

And now, here's your host, Welcome back to The Sipping Point. I'm so excited for this week's episode. We'll be talking to Rachel Martin from Oceana Winery. She started her winery in 2016. Great wines from San Luis Obispo out in California, Pinot Noir, Chardonnay. But in 2023, she embarked on a vision to have the first ever ultra-premium nonalcoholic winery.

 

And that's what she has with Xero. And we're going to hear a little bit more about that, whether you're just doing sober-tober or trying to be more mindful with your wine consumption, or maybe for health reasons, you have to avoid alcohol. So stay tuned. She's going to be with us in a few minutes. But as you know, I always go to the questions you all ask me, or people ask me when I'm doing my live events around the country.

 

And this week, the question was, Why do some wines need sulfites?  Sulfites are a very controversial topic around the country in the wine business. And in fact, if you saw my appearance on the Dr. Oz show some years ago, this was the topic that Dr. Oz wanted to talk about wine headaches. Are sulfites the culprit?

 

What's happening with wine headaches? So let's talk about sulfites. Sulfites are a naturally occurring compound that can be used as a preservative in wine and food. In fact, if you love dried apricots, you're probably having 10 times more sulfites than you would ever get in wine. In a glass of wine, but sulfites allow us to preserve food and beverages.

 

So they last for a longer period of time. They prevent the wine from turning colors that you don't want and growing any type of bacteria. So most great winemakers are going to use as little sulfites as they need to. And so trying to just reduce, reduce to the amount that's just going to do exactly what they need.

 

Needed to do but some commercial wineries are a little bit more overzealous with the sulfites And then there are organic or natural wines that do not add any Sulfites to the wine, but also then you have a more limited shelf life  On the product. Now, here's the other little kicker that I'm not sure you know, that actually when you ferment wine sulfites are naturally occurring.

 

So there's no way to get a wine that has zero sulfites. It's just not possible. But the idea is to find one, like I said, that is made by a wine maker who tries to use as little as possible. But if you are a sufferer of wine headaches and I get asked this question probably the most, it is probably not the sulfites.

 

If you are allergic to sulfites or you have a sulfite sensitivity, the reaction is typically a redness, maybe hives, maybe trouble breathing. And so if you're just waking up in the morning with a little bit of a wine headache, as we say, it's most probably not the sulfites. So, what is it? Um, an easy idea of what it could be is not drinking enough water.

 

Dehydration, and all alcohol is going to include dehydration, um, is a major source of wine headaches or day after headaches. So, for every glass of wine, have a glass of water. I know easier said than done. And when you, you know, are really loving a wine, the last thing you want is the water, but please give that a try.

 

The other thing is that wine, because it's a natural plant product has histamines. And if you are a sufferer of seasonal allergies, then you've heard that word histamine before. Four, because histamines are what cause our stuffy noses, our allergy headaches, and a lot of other symptoms that you're probably used to suffering with during your allergy season.

 

So because of the histamines in the wine. Red wines are a little bit higher in that. That may be causing some of your headaches and congestion. I'm not a medical doctor. I should probably have prefaced that right up front. But you know, if you think of those allergy symptoms, think of what you might take for them.

 

That could be your answer right there. Red wines also has something called tannins  and tannins come from the grape skins. They give you that sort of bitter astringency on the finish of a red wine. It is what makes red wine. So great with steaks and animal proteins because the tannin in the reds binds with the animal proteins and the meat and cheeses.

 

So definitely that is in the running and I don't know if you know, but there are many other things that are approved and allowed to be added to wine. Things like coloring agents, like mega purple, um, different. Acids to kind of balance out the wine, even powdered tannin, granular cork. Most of your better smaller wineries are not going to be doing this, but it is allowed and out there, especially for your larger bulk commercial wineries.

 

So if you are suffering from wine headaches, don't go right to the sulfites as your reason and don't go blaming the winemakers who do try to use a little bit of that to preserve their wine. because let me tell you, there's a lots of other reasons why you might be getting wine headaches. So just a little background for you.

 

Wine sulfites naturally occurring during fermentation and then used as a preservative for the wine. And most probably they're not the cause of your wine headache. It's probably over consumption and just needing to hydrate a little bit. All right, that's the sipping point for this week, but now I'm super excited to bring in Rachel Martin.

 

She's the founder of Oceano Wines, and she's been making wine and growing grapes for the last 20 years. She studied wine at the University of Bordeaux and Napa Valley College, as well as took her family's winery in Virginia Wine Country, Boxwood.  state from being a local winery to an international one.

 

And then in 2016, when she decided it was time to strike out on her own, she found this amazing property in San Luis Obispo, Spanish Springs Vineyard. And that's where she started making her high end Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. That's how I came in contact with her and was a huge fan of her wines. And now with the low alcohol, non alcohol movement going on, she decided in 2013 to really strike out and become the first person to create an ultra premium single vineyard Non alcoholic wine.

 

And she has both a white Chardonnay and a red Pinot Noir. And I'm so excited to have her on the show on The Sipping Point. So let's bring her on in.  Welcome to The Sipping Point. We have Rachel Martin from Oceano Wines, and I'm so excited to talk to you. about lots of things, uh, being a woman in the wine business, of course, but your amazing winery with regular wines, but also now your focus on zero alcohol or low alcohol wines.

 

So,  welcome to the show. Thanks, Laurie. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to talk about the exciting projects that we have going on. Awesome. So we connected a long while ago. I know you, as I mentioned in the intro, you started your winery in 2016, but you had some great experience in Virginia wine country at your family's Boxwood Estate Winery.

 

But now you're doing your own thing. I mean, how amazing was that to all come together with your fruit you have in San Luis Obispo? Was that just like your lifelong dream?  Um, I, I wouldn't say that necessarily or that I have a dream, so to speak. It's more of a vision, uh, that I follow. Um, I'd like to say somewhat involuntarily.

 

Sometimes you just end up pointing yourself in a direction and you just go.  But I started my life and wine, uh, thanks to my family having a winery and vineyard, uh, which I ran for extended period of time. And then I visited a vineyard in San Luis Obispo on the coast, right outside of Pismo Beach in California.

 

That really spoke to me and it changed the course of my life. Uh, the vineyard is called Spanish Springs and That was the basis, the reason why I started Oceano Wines. Oceano having, you know, meaning ocean in Spanish, uh, in the proximity to the ocean that's The crux of what our wines are all about  and it's that marine influence I guess that cool climate that makes it ripe If to lack of a better word, um for Pinot Noir and Chardonnay Is that why it's so great for those two grapes?

 

Those are really the basis of all your wines It was more the coastal influence, um, the, you know, it's an ancient seabed, uh, so you have marine shale, limestone, sandstone, um, those cool, cool nights and, and warm days and all of the sea spray bound in the fog that sits on the vineyard. Those are the elements that drew me to the vineyard.

 

There are eight varieties that are grown there. Um, I got most excited about Chardonnay and Pinot Noir when I started, and last year was our first year producing Syrah. I love your wines. We did a great virtual tasting a while back, and I got to taste both the Chardonnay and the Pinot Noir. I'm excited to try the Syrah.

 

I'll have to put that on my list. But now you have a newer addition to your line of wines with your Zero collection. So, okay, us wine lovers, we're excited. Pretty much kind of giggle a little bit when we talk about alcohol free wines, but that's kind of changing. What drew you to add that to your portfolio of wines?

 

The reason why I got into non alcoholic wines is because I noticed there wasn't any high quality being made or sold. And  the reason  why I figured was because They weren't using high quality grapes and  weren't using their best parts of the vineyard or their best barrels to produce non alcoholic wines.

 

It's more of an afterthought. When I originally got interested,  I,  you know, went shopping for non alcoholic wine. And  couldn't find any of these vineyard characteristics or notes of terroir on the labels. It was,  uh, kind of hard to find out where the grapes were sourced from and where the wines were made.

 

There wasn't a vintage on the label. And so I thought, Oh, and I knew from doing interviews that  people were really looking for non alcoholic wines, but were dissatisfied with the quality and the flavors that they're finding what was available  through all of that. I figured, well, I. I could do a better job at that, um, than what's currently being offered.

 

And they were tended to be very sweet as well.  And there could be a whole host of reasons for that, whether  it's stylistic decisions or quality concerns, um, with the base wine that once you remove the alcohol, you're leaving the wine.  Raw or maybe you could even consider it naked. I like to say, um, and that really, uh, shows, you know, you take the veil off, you take everything off and what you have is a pure expression of the quality of, of the baseline.

 

So sometimes.  Wineries will add a lot of sugar to mask  off flavors and to build body, but we can get into that.  Well, um, I thought we'd start and, um, we, we both have your two, um, zero wines. One's a Chardonnay, one's a Pinot Noir as that's what you specialize in. Just showing everybody this amazing bottle.

 

And so once you learned the process. of de alcoholizing. It sounds like what you're saying is it's sort of like people say to make great wine, you have to start with great grapes. And maybe people weren't doing that with alcohol free wine. So you up the ante on the quality of the grapes on the single vineyard, on the vintage, rather than just, It being an afterthought.

 

Correct. Correct. Uh, that was our approach to it. Um, and you know, we're barrel fermenting our Chardonnay and that's unusual for a non alcoholic wine. Um, where, yeah, that's an investment. Yeah, that's,  This is a  45 bottle of non alcoholic wine.  Um, we put a lot of investment into, first of all, the cultivation of the grapes, to, um, to the protocols of fermenting in French oak, using French high quality oak, and then a lot of barrel stirring.

 

Yeah, so what you have is non alcoholic Chardonnay that is varietally correct,  so it has, you know, those citrus notes and floral notes.  Yeah, and that kind of creaminess, too, that a lot of people love in the nose for a Chardonnay. And that's coming from, you know, we do malolactic fermentation on the Chardonnay, so that's where that's coming from, um, but the, you know, we remove the alcohol by spinning cone column process  and getting back to the value of a 45 bottle of non alcoholic Chardonnay Yeah.

 

You have, you know, excellent fruit that we're sourcing, um, high quality barrels for our, uh, fermentation, malolactic fermentation, then aging for eight months in French oak barrels with lots of lees stirring as well. So then we remove the alcohol by spinning cone column process. And basically you are. Uh, it's a method of vacuum distillation.

 

So within, in a vacuum, you don't need to heat to an regular boiling point. The boiling point is 80 degrees Celsius for a very short period of time. Um, but when you remove the alcohol, you're removing some water as well,  ev eventually it's a 25 to 30% loss. So your costs go up, but I promise you that and your viewers, this one's delicious.

 

It's excellent. It has, it has. all of the hallmarks of, of fine wine, just minus the alcohol. Yeah. And it has a really nice crisp finish to it and lively acidity, which is my preferred style. You know, a lot of times I would say, you know, I don't know, an oak Chardonnay. Um, this does have the oak, but still has that crisp acidity and that citrus feel on the palate.

 

And so it's, it's really refreshing. And I guess there's a number of reasons why people might search out non alcoholic wine, obviously. Maybe they're doing Sober September, or Sobertober, or  maybe it's a health reason, or just to kind of lighten up during the week and maybe save their alcohol, or wines for the weekends.

 

What, what do you find is the big motivator for people? Well, I'm, I'm also a consumer of non alcoholic wine, so I can speak directly to it. It's not just about sobriety. Um, it's more about  your own health, you know, whether it's mental or physical health or how you're going to feel the next day or clarity that's needed for the following day or Say you're at a networking event and you want to have a glass of wine,  um, but don't want to be affected by, um, intoxication and you want to remember everything and all that could be medications could be diet reasons.

 

Um, there are a whole host of reasons that are completely separate to full sobriety. Love that. Well, one of the things, um, that we talked about when we met, uh, a few weeks ago, um, here in Maryland was the fact that, you know, I've, I had tried a few sparkling and white non alcoholic wines that I said, okay, I could drink those.

 

Um, not nearly as Chardonnay, of course, but  the reds, We're where it's seeming like it stopped for me. I was like, ah, I don't think so. So  we're going to taste and talk about your Pinot Noir. Um, but red seemed to be a little bit harder, uh, to achieve that sort of, um, wine style with the alcohol removed. Is there anything special you're doing, because I find your Pinot Noir very enjoyable, that makes yours sort of a step above, obviously the grape quality?

 

Well, I think, um, right, it's the grape quality. We use multiple clones in all of our wines, so you're getting a complexity with the, with our non alcoholic Pinot Noir. that you  don't get in typical non alcoholic red wine. It's the gentle handling. I mean, I honestly think it just, it comes down to high quality grapes.

 

and the desire to create a balanced wine that is dry is not sweet.  Um, we're, you know, very cautious with our winemaking style. Um, again, it's very high quality barrels that we're using for aging.  Um,  I would just say, you know, it's high quality winemaking, high quality grapes. aging in excellent barrels, very  gentle form of alcohol removal.

 

And then  here's the thing is after you remove the alcohol up until bottling, it's kind of this, this area that the consumer doesn't really know much about when it comes to non alcoholic wine.  But what's cool is that  On the labels you have, uh, ingredients, so non alcoholic wines, you can look at what's in the wine after de alcoholization.

 

And then also, you know, how many added sugars or calories that are there so you can make informed decisions.  Um, so we add just a touch of, uh, cane sugar, invert sugar to balance the wine because alcohol provides sweetness. So when you remove the alcohol, it could be overly acidic or taste. It's a little sour.

 

So you want to balance that. Some wineries do it  with rectified grape must or grape juice.  Many wines, um, use grape, use grape juice, um, or other forms of juice to make up for the volume loss, uh, and then also to sweeten it without adding sugar. So it's one way to say, Oh, it's, you know, sugar free, but it might be high in calorie.

 

Well, ours have a tiniest bit of sugars, less than a gram per liter of sugar in our, um, Pinot Noir. And it's only five calories per class. So that's 25. Calories per bottle. So it's not going to  mess with your diet in any way whatsoever. You might, you know, burn more calories than it takes to drink it.

 

Probably, yeah, just going to the store to pick it up. But I do love it has that red fruit, that cherry on the nose. And when you take this sip, you do get Some roundness to it, but again, that really nice food friendly acidity on there, um, that makes Pinot Noir, of any version, such a great food pairing wine.

 

Um, where, where can people, if people are like, okay, I'm ready for high quality, luxury, high end wine, um, without alcohol, how do they find your wines? How do they go about testing them out?  Yeah. Um, well, Our website is a great place to do it. Um, we sell all of our wines with alcohol, alcohol removed, and then we'll, you know, we're coming online with our reduced alcohol Syrah.

 

So everything can be purchased from our website. We just sold out of our Chardonnay.  Um, but there are websites that still carry it, which would be Sashay. That's, located in Charleston, South Carolina, but they have an online presence and ship anywhere.  Um, also, uh, the Zero Proof and Boisson, they still have inventory of the Chardonnay and if you want to buy from us directly, you can join the waiting list and you can do that on our website.

 

We're about to release the Pinot Noir October 1st. We have a waiting list as well on our website. Um, so you could sign up for that. And so far we have about 350  people on the waiting list. So it's pretty exciting. There's a lot of,  uh, sorry to say, buzz.  no buzz from the wine, but definitely buzz around these wines.

 

Yes. And I love that we can drink them during, in the middle of the day and, um, we're gonna feel just as fabulous as we did.  I can't use, we had our wine. Um, Rachel, if you, if there's any women wine lovers out there that kind of have a dream of getting in the wine business, whether it be.  wine education, or working at a winery, or even having their own winery.

 

What's one  tip that you might give them that's kind of helped you get to where you are today?  Um, I would say, uh, the greatest way to get into wine is  to work at a winery.  I would highly recommend, um, get perhaps working in a tasting room. Um, and if you don't live in wine country, then perhaps, you know, working at a wine shop or just, you know, you actually don't have to be professionally in wine to get started.

 

So there are a lot of courses like WCET, Quartermaster, Sommeliers. A lot of different options to become educated in wine, just maybe as a hobby. And there are a lot of universities as well that offer  courses to get you started. But, hey, you know, um, If there are women out there that are interested in getting into the wine business, give me a ring, send me an email.

 

Love that. Yep, we're always looking for new people to join our team. And if that interests you, then please, by all means. Awesome. Well, Rachel Martin from Oceana Wines, thank you so much for being on The Sipping Point and letting us taste your new Zero wines, which are delicious. and alcohol free and I can't wait to see, uh, see what happens next for you.

 

I hope you'll, you'll stay in touch and thanks so much for sharing this with us. Thanks, Laurie. It's a real pleasure. Great to see you. Awesome.  Thank you so much for tuning in this week to The Sipping Point, and I want to offer you a free gift. I have a video series all about tasting, pairing, and serving wine.

 

I call it The Sommelier's Secrets, and you can go to the winecoachsecrets.  com and put in your email address. You will get the email videos delivered to you one per day for a couple of days, and then you'll also be on my email list to find out about upcoming events, podcasts, And even trips to wine country.

 

So just go to thewinecoachsecrets.com and get my four video series on the secrets that sommeliers know, and you need to. All right. Uh, it was such a pleasure having Rachel Martin this week. And if you want to hear. All of the sipping points and not miss an episode. Go to Apple iTunes, I heart radio, or wherever you get your podcast and subscribe to the sipping point.

 

So you don't miss an episode. We'll also be posting videos on YouTube. You can go to my YouTube channel, the wine coach, and then, um, check me out on Facebook, Instagram, and all of the socials at the wine coach. And you also get information and clips from these interviews. As well. Um, you can download my free app for iPhone and Android and just go to thewinecoach.com

 

com slash app. All of the wines that I recommend in my monthly virtual tastings are in there as well as access to this podcast and lots of other great videos and assets. So download the wine coach app and that's in the app store in the Google play store, either one. And it's 100 percent free.  As always, it's such a pleasure to have you here at The Sipping Point.

 

If you have any ideas for guests or topics, email me at laurie@thewinecoach.com and until next week, cheers.  Thanks for joining us on The Sipping Point Podcast. We hope you enjoyed this fun and flavorful look at the world of wine, food, and beyond. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share with your fellow wine lovers.

 

Until next time, keep on sipping!